It baffles me too. But having just moved and rehung all my wheels, I took the time to catalogue and count them too. 120 wheels! that's about 60 pairs.
Now I know that I bought some wheel sets separate from bikes, probably 15 or 20 sets. So that means 40 pairs of wheels came off of complete bikes that I imported and bad to part out. That means there should be 40 bare frames lying around somewhere. I admit that I have lot of frames 

this query came in from a reader:

Comment
I am looking for an 80s era Colnago frame set that I can build up over time. 60-62cm frame.

I sent him a suggestion and then he replied with a more specific query:

Thank you for getting back to me. I have just started looking for a vintage frame. Its hard to describe exactly what I'm looking for. I'll know it when I see it, not too picky. The brands I am interested in are:

Colnago
Lemond
Ciocc
Bianchi
Marinoni
Merckx
Concord
Bottecchia
Panasonic
Mielle
Moser
Fluer
Pinarello

That frame you have is nice, I would need to strip it and give it a brighter paint job. My budget is definitely less than $500. I'm looking in the 200-300 range.

Lets keep in touch,

To which I replied:

There's quite a leap from Miele to Merckx. They are not usually mentioned in the same search.

With patience, you might find a decent frame in the $200-300 range, but highly unlikely a top brand like Colnago, Pinarello, Merckx.

I think you have to refine your search.
Cat 1. Colnago, PInarello, Merckx (good condition: $500, VGC $700+)

Cat2. Conorde (but beware, only a few are their top frames), Ciocc, Bianchi (ditto - they made masses of frames, good and mediocre), Bottechia (ditto), Moser,

Cat 3. Marinoni, Lemond, Miele (A), Panasonic

Cat 4: Miele (B - they made a lot of entry level frames)

I've never heard of Fluer. Who are / were they?

By the way, what would you look at that would tell you a frame was high quality or not?

And FYI (and IMHO), unless a frame is absolutely unrideable or trashed, beware of stripping and repainting a classic frame. It makes it prettier to look at for a little while but it wrecks the collector's value.
Repaints kill the value of a frame.
Do you want wall art or a "rider"?

Peter

having slept on it, I then proceeded to overwhelm poor Tom with more of my "thinking"

On 06/05/2014 9:39 PM, Tom Iannucci wrote:
Peter, thanks again. Your response was not long ... I appreciated all the detail. To answer your question about the Marioni, you're right, the price is $1,350 for a stock version of the frame set and $1,525 for a custom version. If I were to get it, I would probably be fine with the base component set, which is Camp veloce ($2,600), which I understand is equivalent to 105. But you gave me a lot to think about. Can I ask why you recommended the Ridley? Do you feel it's a particularly good value for the money? (the componenents don't seem to be lower end). Also, how old are your Times bikes?

Tom
I suggested you look at Ridley because they are being carried by MEC and I turn to MEC as my base line for ethical (both in terms of commerce and in terms of society) retailing. They charge better-than-fair prices and have great return and warranty policies.

so basically, I was suggesting you look at MEC.

In a bike, there are three elements to evaluate. Frame, wheels and components (the "groupset")
Unfortunately for bike retailers (unlike mattress retailers where you cannot compare models apples-to-apples because there are no standard models) 105 is 105, Ultegra is Ultegra, no matter who sells it. You just slap them on a frame with a pair of wheels. And that is about 50% the value of a bike.

So, if MEC has a good frame (and the Ridleys is a good manufacturer who makes good frames, probably top 20 in the world, so they are not completely generic. They are leaders in Cyclo Cross. Let me put it this way, No one would be/should be embarrassed to show up for a group ride on a Ridley. You could be / should be embarrassed to show up on a Norco. even though norco probably makes excellent bikes. They are also associated with kids bikes and Canadian Tire level stuff.)
AND since it has 105 or Ultegra on it (and not the WARNING! Sora or Tiagra), that becomes (in my mind) the benchmark for shopping for anything.
Bianchi can paint their frames "celeste" green (which forever was their marker of their top quality frames - their Japanese stuff was never painted Celeste. Red, brown, other, but never Celeste.) but that doesn't make it a great frame or a great bike. at a certain point it is just cosmetics.

So anyway, the MEC Ridely Fenix carbon bike with OK wheels and 105 is $2200. (though they have a perfectly good Ridley Orion model in 105 for $1950, but let's keep this apples-to-apples. There must be some small difference between Fenix and Orion frames, like the type of carbon used or something.)
the MEC Ridely Fenix carbon bike (basically the same with maybe slightly better wheels -- indeed they are better, Fulcrum Racing 5) in Ultegra is $2850.
So, there's your jump. 105 to Ultegra at MEC = $650.
at any other retailer it would be a $1000 jump.
(ask your bike shop what the Intenso with Ultegra costs. ahhh, I see. The Sempre with Ultegra is $3600 -  but with Fulcrum R 7, so heavier and less costly than the MEC Ultegra build)
So there's your $1000 leap.

So, yes, while I would not want to show up on a MEC branded bike (which is completely irrational but that's the way we sorry consumers are) I would be happy to show up on a well equipped Ridley. So, yes, they are good value and a decent ego shot.

Interesting about MEC and brands. 5 years ago their bikes were all branded "MEC" and probably came out of the same Aisan factories as many well-known international brands. (you can buy a very good carbon frame from China on line for about $350, a similar frame from say Pinarello costs $6000. Go figure.) but I think they eventually realised that people DO (unfortunately) value brands and MEC was perceived as "cheap". So, they first changed dumped the MEC label and changed the name to "Ghost". But when (I am speculating) the public couldn't find any mention or reviews of Ghost brand bikes online, they then cut the deal to retail the Ridley line.
Similarly with clothing (at least bike clothing.) I always send people to MEC for stuff because Hey, inner tubes are basically the same, and if I can pay $2 or $4 at MEC instead of $5 to $10 at a real bike store, I'm OK with that. They similarly have excellent prices on all the other basics, like cables, computers, tools, etc. And you don't get confused by the flurry of brands and models. They usually only have one choice, maybe two, but it's a well chosen choice.

But we used to think of MEC as "cheap". their bike clothing was again MEC-branded (and was fine). But they didn't have the chic brands like Rapha or Assos. But when I stopped in the store this week I saw that they were now carrying Castelli, which for years, decades, was THE name in cycling clothing. So there.

Anyway, IF I were buying a new bike I would probably buy at MEC if I felt they had a good brand, well-equipped (which they now do.) I would feel better that I wasn't going to get the wool pulled over my eyes by a fast talking sales guy on commission. I fear that typical bike shops are all a little bit sneaky. (they don't tell you that they save money with cheap wheels)

Though I must say, at least whomever you were speaking to about the Bianchi didn't push you into a more expensive bike. Who knows? Maybe their margins are better on the lower end gear.
Though I must say too that a 53 cm frame seems a bit small. But who knows.

But then I would never buy a new bike. They depreciate just like cars. probably 50% as soon as you roll them out of the store.

Which brings us to the Times. These are about year 2010. They were trade ins at a local bike shop in France. They are superb machines, the top of the Time line.
(that said though, maybe the Bianchi sales person was right too, that you might not be comfortable on the top of the line gear. You don't need a Ferrari to go camping do we?)
But just the components are worth considering. Campagnolo Record will perform and feel better than 105.
And Campagnolo commands about a 50% premium in the market. And Record is their near top of the line, above Dura Ace in Shimano (which no one rides because they feel they can't afford it or justify the extra cost.)

Here for instance is a Bianchi Infinito configured with Ultegra. $6101
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/bianchi-infinito-cv?ti=UExQIENhdDpDdXN0b20gUm9hZCBCaWtlcyAmIEZyYW1lczoxOjI4OmNjQ2F0MTAwNTY2&skid=BIA000C-BLA-S50CM#build/BIA000C-BLA-S50CM/25
no wheels 4818 USD
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/bianchi-infinito-cv?ti=UExQIENhdDpDdXN0b20gUm9hZCBCaWtlcyAmIEZyYW1lczoxOjI4OmNjQ2F0MTAwNTY2&skid=BIA000C-BLA-S50CM#build/BIA000C-BLA-S50CM/25
The same bike with Campagnolo Record (albeit 11 speed, which is where they are these days.) $7220
no wheels 5937

So another $1000 premium for Campagnolo Record. over Ultegra
And a $500 premium over Dura Ace.
and that is from a well known online shop called Competitive Cyclist, where the pricing is very very aggressive. In a local store the spreads would be higher.
Competitive Cyclist is a pretty good place for competitive shopping, or at least checking prices. You can see the cost differential of different components, different wheels in the online Build system.

There you go. that's about all I know I think.

Oh, but if you wanted to think about steel alternatives to the Marinoni, here's a couple that I have.

https://picasaweb.google.com/108311927910610551260/2V54x54ColnagoVintage1500?noredirect=1

this Basso is very cool
https://picasaweb.google.com/108311927910610551260/2V54STx545TT900BASSO126mmRearSpacingDuraAceWheelsExtra?noredirect=1

and if you just wanted to get On the Road on a modern bike for not a lot of money, I love this Fondriest in aluminum with a carbon fork and 9S 105
https://picasaweb.google.com/108311927910610551260/1AC55x55FondriestDonRacerAluWithCarbonFork9S1051150?noredirect=1

Or, if you wanted to say in carbon, and we decided 53 was your size, this Lapierre is quite amazing
https://picasaweb.google.com/108311927910610551260/1AC53cmSTx53cmTTEffectiveNEWLapierreSensium400CarbonWith10SpSRAMForce2200?noredirect=1
brand new.

But if (or when) you have time, you should come over and jump on a few different sized frames, at least to test out the appropriate frame size.

Peter

Had an inquiry via this website the other day (Yea!) and the response got so involved that I thought it would be worth posting here, as it captures much of my thinking about buying a bike.

On 05/05/2014 11:11 PM, Tom wrote:
Hi Peter,
I'm hoping you can help me. I"m 48 and I'd like to do a lot more cycling (I was never a serious cyclist) and I've narrowed it down to 3 possibilities:

1. Marinoni 40th anniversary steel (http://www.marinoni.qc.ca/html/40SL.html). I love lugged steel bikes, but it seems there are very few being made at reasonable prices and I thought this might be a good (and unique) option, but I really don't know anything about Marinoni or this particular frame (can't find any reviews)

2. Bianchi Intenso 105 (http://www.bianchicanada.com/intenso105c.html). Bike shops are steering me towards carbon. I'm not going to be racing, but I would like to be able to keep up if I start riding in groups and the bike shops and other friends with carbon bikes are telling me that riding steel will make it tough to keep up (If I understand correctly, the real advantage of carbon is the stiffness not the lower weight, but I"m not sure).

3. Buy the Bianchi and then take my time finding a nice vintage steel bike, hopefully through you. So basically I'm struggling with a) the carbon vs. steel decision. And b) if I go steel, I thought it would be nice to get a brand new steel bike that might become a nice, classic vintage bike someday. Would the Marinoni be a good choice?

Or would you be able to help find me a better vintage bike? (Buying both the Bianchi and the Marinoni would be more that what I was planning to spend at this time.) I really enjoyed reading your website, and would appreciate your opinion.

Thanks, Tom


Tom.

(Here by the way is a link to Rob Penn's excerpt on Steel frames.)

I heard the Marinoni 40th frame mentioned the other day, during my wednesday AM group ride.
I don't know much about Marinoni either. well, that is to say I know all about them as one of the prestige Canadian frame builders, and a member of our vintage bike club is an absolute fanatic for Marinonis. But I've never owned one.
It looks like a beautiful bike. and I am sure it is.
I think I heard that it is about $1400 for the frameset only. (do you know if that is correct?)
Here's my two cents.

1. Marinoni is revered in Canada, but is virtually unknown elsewhere. That doesn't diminish it's value. thats just a fact. though if you never plan on selling the bike, it's value to anyone else is irrelevant.
2. These 40th frames do not appear to  be custom made. At $1400 you could commission a custom made frame (like Rob Penn does in his book). by the time you get this built up you'll be in for $3-4000 I expect. (which is ok, but it's quite an investment.)
3. In my opinion, (and not to take anything away from Marinonis) but my sense on the street is that they are a bit
common. You see them locked up on the street everywhere. But I expect there were ranges of Marinonis - Top, upper and middle (there were probably no low end Marinonis).

You can get a good condition used Pinarello or Colnago or other prestige Italian brand frameset for ... $500 to $700. So, is a Marinoni worth $1400?

re: the Bianchi

Hmmm, this is a long story. But I may as well write up my thoughts for future reference.

This Intenso seems to be the bottom of the Bianchi road lineup, below Oltre, Sempre, and Infinito. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But you will be paying full price primarily for the Bianchi name. (and the price -- at least at la Bicicletta -- seems to be about $2600 plus tax.... which puts you at $2935 or so.)
It has 105. Which is perfectly serviceable. I ride 105 stuff. But I wouldn't pay a lot of it. (many riders cut off at Ultegra, but that is mostly pride talking on one side and their pocket book talking on the other. In reality they would like to be riding Dura Ace and they would be perfectly happy on 105)

The cassette I see is Tiagra, which again, is fine, but this is where they save money. (A Dura Ace cassette alone would add.. $200 to the price. Just for the cassette.)

The place bike dealers save money is in the wheels. and the wheels are the one place you want to invest. I cannot find a weight reference but I expect these Fulcrum Racing Sport wheels are relatively heavy. (I'll ask La Bicicletta and I have emailed Fulcrum directly.) If they are over 2000 grams, then they are cheap wheels that will hold you back.
a pair of Fulcrum Racing 7s weigh 1750g ( the #1s are the lightest, best and most expensive, then they go up in weight and down in cost to 3, 5,7 etc. )
the 1s weigh 1465g,
and when you are talking about a carbon bike in the 7500 to 8500g range, that 300 g makes a difference.
I expect the Sport weighs more than the 7s

My concern with many big bike brands these days (Bianchi, Specialized, Trek, Giant, ... you name is) in general these days is that they make sooo many models that the public has no idea if they are buying good stuff or cheap stuff made to look good. (the same dynamic is at work in the ski market, and probably tennis racquets. Rossignol makes probably only 3 models of skis that are their top stuff, that professionals would use. And the other 99 are lower end gear, with the Rossignol name on it, but the stuff that you get in a ski rental shop. A good skier wouldn't ski on rental skis.)

Bianchi for years has slowly debased their name. for decades they have had low end Japanese made bikes out there. Perfectly fine bikes, just not really a prestige bike.

That said, a lower end bike will function perfectly well.

The other problem with the Bianchi is that the resale value will be low. For one, because people will know that the Intenso it is not a prestige Bianchi model. And 2, because people will be confused with all the thousands of Bianchis out there and so will not ascribe as much value to the brand name.

Otherwise, if you are still thinking carbon (and I kind of understand. I feel a bit silly and old fashioned showing up on vintage steel on group rides where everyone else is on the latest and greatest carbon) You might look at the Ridley's at MEC.
http://www.mec.ca/product/5036-347/ridley-orion-c10-bicycle-unisex/?h=10+50002+50013&f=10+50002+50208

Or, if one of these fits, you should consider one of my Times. These VXRS models ARE the top of the line from Time, what the pros actually ride. and wIth top top end Campagnolo Record and excellent, lightweight wheels, at $2950 they are incredible machines that would be $6000-7000 at la Bicicletta.

What size frame to you ride or think you need? that would focus the discussions.

sorry to go on so long.

Peter
416 821 8750

A woman contacted me the other day asking whether the hybrid bike a friend had loaned her woudl get her through a 2 day charity ride, or whether she should upgrade to a real road bike (as her local bike shop had suggested.) She told me that it was "too easy" on the flats.

It got me thinking about how to Talk Bikes with a true novice, what they need to know. Here's how I answered Shirley.

Shirley, ....

Let's talk about what style of bike you need/want.

There are three main aspects to a road bike.
1) the frame \
2) the gears / components
3) the wheels and tires

As regards gears and components. Re: that bike your friend loaned you. Is it a road bike? or a hybrid or a mountain bike? can you shoot me a picture of it? Assuming it is a reasonably lightweight road bike, are there 2 rings on the front (near the pedals) and 7 on the back wheel? If so, then 2x7=14 should be adequate for most riders. Of my personal collection of bikes I have 2 with 2x6, and several with 2x8. And 2x8 is more than I generally need. the key is having a gear ratio that is low enough (i.e. easy enough) to allow you to get up any hills you might encounter. of your current bike doesn't make it reasonable to get up a hill, then Yes, there is a problem.

Wheels and tires. if you have very heavy wheels and fat or knobby tires, you will go more slowly (by a good % - I would say up to 25%) and you will have more trouble getting up hills. And the bike will feel sluggish.

The Frame. no need to talk about frames until I better understand what you are comparing to. but a clunky old frame that weighs a ton (over 12 kgs) is also going to slow you down, feel sluggish and make climbing hard. So, get back to me on those points will you? photo. is it a road bike? and is it a 2x7 setup?


Hi Peter,
I am attaching the pics but it looks as if I have a lightweight 2x7 road bike. Maybe I don't need a new bike but the people at [ the bike shop] felt I needed more gears among other things. I haven't really done a lot of hills so I haven't encountered any trouble there but when I am on a flat stretch, I seem to be limited to a certain speed because my legs just spin without any tension...if that makes sense. I thought I could use a lower gear.
Anyway, let me know what you think.
Thanks, Shirley


Shirley,

I would respectfully suggest that Sporting Life (like all bike shops) is in the business of selling bikes, not trying to get people to keep their old bike.

Your comment about spinning out on the flats is perfectly reasonable. I expect that is simply because you have not figured out (again, with respect) the correct gear combination (called Gear Ratio, let's call it GR). GR is measured in Inches, how far you would travel with one pedal rotation in a certain combination of front + back.
Your spinning out suggests you are in too Low a GR for the flats.

It's all a question of very simple math. Not even math. Just counting the number of teeth on the front and back rings and sprockets.

this website has a GR calculator

You need a Low gear to climb a hill easily.
the Lowest gear ratio is when you are in the small front ring and the largest rear sprocket.

I can climb most hills with a 42 teeth front and a 25 teeth rear.

So, according to this calculator that is a 42.1 inch GR

To go flat or especially to go downhill without spinning out you need a High GR.
I would go downhill in my big front ring (52 teeth) + the smallest rear (12 teeth) = 113.9

So that is a Range of 42inches to 114inches. A less fit or experienced cyclist might need a Lower low to get up hills. If I had a 34 front and a 30 rear (like a Mountain bike) that would give me a 30inch low and make the hills much much easier.

Now, do you have it in the BIG front ring when you are on the flats? (the LH shifter)
If so, have you then dropped the back to a smaller rear sprocket (the RH shifter)
it may simply be so old and so out of tune that it doesn't shift easily and so you haven't bothered.
so you may be down to a functional 3 speed if the shifting is really stiff.

In theory, there is nothing wrong with that bike and there is no good reason (assuming the range of GR on that bike is appropriate. You would have to count the teeth on the two front rings -- assuming it isn't marked, which it wouldn't be on a cheap bike. and the teeth on the Biggest and smallest on the rear.)
that bike could not get you through the cancer ride (am I right that you are thinking of doing the cancer ride?)
the tires, while fattish, seem to be smooth (and so would roll reasonably well)

All that said, it would not be the most pleasant experience. That is, I think (Only "think" because I cannot see any details in the photo), a relatively cheap bike probably with relatively low end components. Probably heavy (do you have a bathroom scale? weigh yourself and then you holding the bike. What's the difference. If it's more than 12kgs / 27.5lbs, then it is not lightweight and so is probably not well constructed.)) You cannot as they say make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. It won't feel great. the shifting will always be clunky. It will be hard to tune. It will brake erratically.....And people will look at you and wonder "What is she doing on THAT bike?" So you would need a strong ego.
I am sorry to be so blunt, but this is the reality.

Another possible problem might be if it is the wrong size. If you cannot set the saddle to a comfortable position. If you have the patience to do more measuring, measure the distance from the middle of the Bottom Bracket shell (the big tube that the crank axle passes through) to the top of the saddle, along the seat tube.
for your inseam this distance should be about... 71-72cm (28"-28.5")

But there is nothing that completely disqualifies that bike.

But, if you want to do more than a one weekend ride and if you want that ride to the cancer ride more enjoyably, you might consider a different bike.

I have one, a very nice one, that I would suggest you try. You are welcome to come by and we can test it out. I will set you up, show you have the shifting works and see how you look size and fitwise. You can even borrow it for a weekend. Whether you like it or not, there is no obligation. You will at least feel the difference between a good bike and a poor quality one.

Peter

In the end, when she did come over, it turned out her loaner hybrid was a 3x7 setup (perfectly adequate), the wheels and tires were reasonably slick (and about 30mm wide so not TOOOO wide) and it weighed a bout 12.5kg / 27.5lbs. (not grotesquely heavy).
So, I told her that while it was probably one size too small (we were able to raise the seat)